Electrostatic precipitators

roasting & roastery operations

Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Mark Dundon on Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:56 am

Hi all,

just a quick question on whether anyone is using a electrostatic precipitator in pollution control. In Australia regulations require us to run our afterburner 100% once the roaster is on, which seems a little carbon heavy. I know a few small roasters are using them in asia, we have a UG 22 which we are looking at using a scrubber/ep combination.

Thanks Mark
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby phaelon56 on Fri Nov 21, 2008 5:43 am

Paul Pratt is doing this in Hong Kong - albeit with a small roaster and a relatively small system. But it should scale easily enough to a larger roaster if the system is made larger.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2293
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Mark Dundon on Wed Nov 26, 2008 12:49 pm

Thanks,

I have seen Paul Pratts setup, which is great. I had heard that someone in the USA had built their own scrubber, and were also using a ESP. I was hoping to be able to do something similar on our UG 22. Basically just to be a little more carbon friendly, and more effective.

thanks again
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby terry on Tue Dec 02, 2008 7:24 pm

I will be installing one in February in Olympia WA. The systems are scalable and we are currently working with Puget Sound air quality, as well as CARB in California for certification.

The system is based on what Paul Pratt has in use. I would be happy to offer up help with specifications for different size roasters, and I hope to be taking orders in the spring of 2009
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby phaelon56 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 5:43 am

Terry (or anyone else with knowledge of this) - have the environmental folks you've spoken with had any comments about the impact or potential issues with the residue/sludge that gets washed out of the filters when they're cleaned and rinsed? I think Paul is using Simple Green or some other bio-friendly agent but his unit and volume are small. I'm wondering what impact there is when you scale up to a larger system with much higher volume.

I'm thinking that a commercial grease trap (which all cafes in my area are already legally obligated to install on the non-septic waste lines) would allow the remaining sludge to be easily cleaned up and collected regularly but I wonder if if will fill up very rapidly. And then what does one do with the residue?

I'm curious about specs for a Diedrich IR-12. I'm not required to use an afterburner in this area the install at my my proposed location will be greatly simplified if I can vent out the wall instead of above the roof.
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby terry on Wed Dec 03, 2008 8:12 am

So far the result of the "sludge" discussion is that it is organic material. A trap may be required but it would be jurisdictional. I'm not sure that a cleaner is truly required if you were to use high pressure water of ultrasonic to clean the screens.

I'm pulling in as much data as I can, as the certification process can be brutal, on equipment that is not currently in use in the N.A.

I will forward you the info on the IR-12, as that is what I am starting with as well.

It sure will be nice to see the gas bill come down to a reasonable amount :D
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby phaelon56 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 9:47 am

terry wrote:
I will forward you the info on the IR-12, as that is what I am starting with as well.

It sure will be nice to see the gas bill come down to a reasonable amount :D


If you don't mind please send to ooneill {at] g* m* a* i* *l dot you-know-what.

I'm always shocked at how much gas the afterburners suck up. And although I'll want a grease trap due to the run length of my planned drain line it should be easy enough to find some local recepients who will want organic sludge.

What excites me is the potential opportunity to stay in a first floor space in a four story building - urban setting - and not have ti run positive pressure ducting clear up to the roof. I have plenty of clearance next to the building and just a parking lot and a highway embankment as immediately adjacent neighbors - but without a scrubebr there's still no way I coudl vent directly out the side wall.
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Tim Dominick on Wed Dec 03, 2008 12:10 pm

A bio digestion system might be perfect for the sludge.

There is a fiberboard plant just up the street from us who is in the middle of a EP install with an enzymatic digestion system. This thing is massive, about the 3400' square feet of concrete and it is filled with these little plastic balls that have been inoculated with the enzymes. The water and sludge is pumped through the system and the resulting waste water can go directly into the sewage system.

Our area outlawed grease traps so all restaurants opened after 2000 have to have a bio digestion system in order to pass inspection.

I think CBI installed an EP system in their new plant, at the very least they eschewed the traditional afterburner system. Paul T, you out there?
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby phaelon56 on Wed Dec 03, 2008 1:46 pm

It may be awhile before we see bio-digestive systems becoming the norm around here in smaller scale situations because we have only four to perhaps a maximum of five months per year where it's warm enough for any exterior composting or bio-digestive system to be assured of operating without temps that drop below freezing at night or stay that way all day (and for months on end).
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Tim Dominick on Thu Dec 04, 2008 9:23 am

The bio digestion systems I've seen for restaurants are inside and inline with the sewage system and take up a fairly small footprint inside the kitchen/dishwasher area. My friend's winery has much larger holding tanks that are outside, however he is dealing with larger volumes of waste for a few weeks every year.

The systems are scalable and I suspect for roasters there would not be a significant volume of waste water generated. A busy Chinese restaurant will produce more digestible effluent in a day than most micro roasters would create in a month.
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby phaelon56 on Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:54 pm

Tim Dominick wrote:The bio digestion systems I've seen for restaurants are inside and inline with the sewage system and take up a fairly small footprint inside the kitchen/dishwasher area. My friend's winery has much larger holding tanks that are outside, however he is dealing with larger volumes of waste for a few weeks every year.

The systems are scalable and I suspect for roasters there would not be a significant volume of waste water generated. A busy Chinese restaurant will produce more digestible effluent in a day than most micro roasters would create in a month.


In that case I'll need to look into them. It's already going to be a long run from the bathroom of my space to the main waste line and the architect is proposing a 2" waste line from the toilet to the main line and use of a septic pump to propel the effluent. My mop sink and three bay wash sink will most likely share a separate 2" line and the less glop I push through there the better.
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Mark Dundon on Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:54 pm

I will post our install as it happens. The scrubber residue is classed as an organic residue similar to an essential oil. Currently we can discharge to a greasetrap sewer line, however it would be great to have a use for this by product. Anyway looks like there is a few popping up...

Thanks Mark
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby IanClark on Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:14 am

Any news on the deployment of electrostatic precipitators since this thread was last active?
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Mark Inman on Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:32 am

SF Mayor Gavin Newsom just approved funding for a Biodiesel plant that would use the trappings of grease traps.

You will now be able to use your residue to power your delivery trucks.

http://www.sfgov.org/site/mayor_index.asp?id=98045

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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby naznar on Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:09 am

I thought Electrostatic Precipitators produced ozone??? do they not?-joel ccr
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby IanClark on Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:04 pm

They do produce small amounts of ozone... I wouldn't inhale the air downstream! No doubt they have to be installed and ventilated with safety in mind. Given that they're used in industrial scales, perhaps they don't create a hazard when ventilated outdoors (it seems 50ppb is an accepted safety threshold)
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Mark Dundon on Fri Feb 13, 2009 12:08 am

Hi,

sorry we have been a little busy back here, we are installing our EP DEVICE at the moment.
The real issue, if I have understood, is high temps effect the removal rate of contaminants, and can damage the electronics.
We have installed our test unit with a canopy introducing room air to lower the temp through the ep device. So extraction fan on the roof creating negative pressure through the flue to canopy above the roaster. Roaster discharges to underneath the flue allowing a mix of air/roast discharge. Similar to maid system but sucking makeup in the roasting room..

I'll let you know, as everyone knows things move slow in the construction phase.

regards Mark
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby paul_pratt on Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:41 pm

I can add a follow-up development of the unit we built. The one I had was built around the end of 2006 for my 5kg Probat. A friend of mine has been running an updated version on a 15kg roaster now but with the following changes:

No water scrubber to reduce the smoke temperature
2 ESP units back to back

Essentially what he has now is something that functions just like mine did but looks a whole lot better as it is integrated into the ventilation system up above. The 2 ESP units bolt together and each is bigger than say a mini-bar fridge in a hotel.

Paul
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Vajra Rich on Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:44 pm

I have been looking into this idea to use for our Gothot because we are moving it from a warehouse outside town do a downtown space. I can't seem to find out what the max temp exhaust air ESP cells can handle. I've been looking at a honeywell product but there doesn't seem to be any info on the max temp. If anyone has a tip on where to source a good ESP cell it would be very helpful.
I was thinking of installing 3 in a series as described in another thread.

Help?
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Yara Tucek on Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:44 am

hi vajra,
we are usually around 50-60C in front of our two cell EPs ... thats about the recommended temperature. we have a separate ventilator to mix cold air with exhaust to achieve this temp. let me know if you need more info about using eps
yara
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby Vajra Rich on Sat Sep 10, 2011 5:40 am

Thanks Yara,

I was wondering about using a ventilator to bring down the temp. What is the CFM of the one youre using?

I wouldn't think it would be good to have too much.
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Re: Electrostatic precipitators

Postby CuthBland on Mon Sep 19, 2011 4:46 am

We've finally managed to install our EP after a few misadventures.

We also installed a fan, on a y-piece ahead of the filter itself to reduce the temp of the air going into it - this created back pressure into the roaster and made roasting impossible. We had to install a booster fan, inline, after the filter to compensate for this. We are still struggling with a reduced air flow though. We don't have an ozone injector and our roasting space is constantly full of smoke leaking out of the filter itself.

It's only been in for a few days and we're still discussing various solutions but although it has reduced the visible smoke coming from the chimney it's created more problems than it's solved.

Suggestions welcome, thanks
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