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Postby nick on Fri Aug 25, 2006 12:42 pm

td wrote:Actually, Nick- It is often very difficult to say what you believe and it is almost always easier to tell people what they want to hear.

And it's even more difficult to say something that will benefit all.

It's perhaps an unAmerican thing to say, but freedom is overrated.

Freedom vs. oppression? Of course: freedom.

But freedom can go too far. "Say what you believe" is very popular, but is also part of "The American Problem." With freedom comes the conflicts that occur when one man's freedom comes into conflict with another's.

Self-discipline is underrated, and is quickly becoming an endangered species on this continent.
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Postby Marshall on Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:34 pm

nick wrote:Terry, it's easy for you to say. It's also easy for folks like Caragay to say... even MORE easy for folks like mikep, Marshall Fuss, AndyS, and other enthusiasts to say.


Enthusiast? Think again, Nick. I can't post two words without considering whether it would violate a client confidence (make that one word).
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Postby td on Fri Aug 25, 2006 2:56 pm

Aww! Nick,
You are so smooth when you punk me. How about a kiss next time?
Am I high? Or are you just that much smarter than me? Why am I completely unable to understand your point? I really am confused, here. Have I just had a stroke? Or do I just need to come to Jesus? Or get clear?

oops- I gotta go my Wife just gave me the evil eye and I can't play anymore. Beside I have to take my oldest out for his Birthday. Sushi WooHoo! Now that is American!

Before I go though, I just wanted to say- I think your last few posts made little or no sense, I tried, I really did.

But, I still enjoy you! And I will still vote for you! Is your app. in? The deadline is fast approaching!

Oh yeah!

Anonymity is still for sissies!
-T.D. Davis
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Postby onocoffee on Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:14 pm

nick wrote:. It's also easy for folks like Caragay to say... .


Why is it that I must be dragged into this chapter of the discussion?

I don't know about the rest of the Coffeed members, but it is anything but "easy" to say/write the things I've said and wrote. Maintaining your character and integrity is the hardest thing to achieve and I'm not going to throw that away just because some people in the specialty coffee industry might not like something I've said or written.

I run my own company and I work for the BGA in an elected position. The choices I make and the actions I take have a very real impact on my staff, my customers and my constituents. Because I am in a position of responsibility I will not compromise my character and integrity, or my choices and actions because I want to be "liked" by everyone.

Because I have chosen this path, I have and must make choices that will, inevitably, leave some people upset with those choices.

I have written to this board a number of posts that dealt with difficult issues. I'm not bullshitting people, mincing words or writing things to fake people into believing that everything in our world is happy-happy, joy-joy and hunky-dory. This past year has dealt this community with hard issues to face and discuss, with many wanting to keep things quiet or sweep the problems under the rug. I won't oblige those notions.

When considering action on any subject, I think about my expectations if I was one of my staff, customers or constituents: what would I expect from my employer, purveyor or elected official? I let that become my guide. And what I would expect from that person is leadership. Someone who will tell it like it is, without pretense, without bullshit and without politics. Someone who will take action without worrying about whether or not he will upset some people. Someone who isn't trying to protect some sacred cow. Someone who is leading without regard for popularity or being elected during the next cycle.

Freedom can go "too far"???

There can be no limit to freedom. Limitation of freedom is oppression.

But how does this apply to our discussion? Are we talking about this so-called freedom going "too far" because we've been openly critical on the failures of the SCAA? This protection of the Golden Calf that is the SCAA has led to the deification of its' executive director and the current quagmire the association finds itself in.

With all this talk about transparency it certainly seems that even this "New Guard" keeps trying to throw an opaque cloak over the issues.
Jay Caragay

Lono
new explorations in coffee + cuisine.
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Postby nick on Fri Aug 25, 2006 9:41 pm

onocoffee wrote:There can be no limit to freedom. Limitation of freedom is oppression.

Like I said... or, perhaps I should clarify: if others limit your freedom (too much), it's oppression. However, you can choose to limit your own freedoms... and that's called self-discipline.

Nobody's trying to limit other people's freedoms... but there are some who are asking others to exercise self-discipline for the good of the community. Bringing unnecessary conflict or stress or strain on the community is pure selfishness, or at least lack of discipline. Granted, "unnecessary" vs. necessary is going to be the debate "for the ages" as Mr. Watts might say.
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Postby onocoffee on Sat Aug 26, 2006 4:41 am

nick wrote:Nobody's trying to limit other people's freedoms... but there are some who are asking others to exercise self-discipline for the good of the community. Bringing unnecessary conflict or stress or strain on the community is pure selfishness, or at least lack of discipline.



What this really seems to communicate is for people to shut up because it's making other people look bad.

Are you asking people to sit there in silence merely because you happen to know, like and consider some of the board members friends? That seems ludicrous to me.

If there's a message that something is being done here, then it needs to said in a clear voice. Otherwise, we can presume that nothing is happening, save for individuals crying out that people need "self-discipline" because they don't want their "friends" to be bothered.
Last edited by onocoffee on Sat Aug 26, 2006 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jay Caragay

Lono
new explorations in coffee + cuisine.
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Postby Jaime van Schyndel on Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:49 am

onocoffee wrote:"self-discipline"


I think there is some irony here...

.

Alistair,
You rock. I hope we get to meet at one of the shows or the USBC(you were there last year?) so I can thank you personaly for this site. The research I got into alone for the study group has been a huge boon to my knowledge pool. The fact that we can get a group of mostly passionate pros into a forum with less noise to debate tangible issues in coffee is amazing.
Thank you.
Cambridge, MA 02138
http://www.barismo.com/
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Postby Jim Schulman on Sat Aug 26, 2006 12:30 pm

td wrote:... Thirdly- Jim we are hardly academics, as much as many of us would like to believe so. Most of us here are business owners or are the key principles in the companies we work for.

Fouthly, I get real confused when people seem to argue both sides of an issue. ...


First; I'm not arguing both sides. I favor self-identification; I've done it from the first time I ever posted anything anywhere (mostly because I'm vain). But I also want to make sure if anyone has something important to say (and if an administrator agrees it's important) that it can be posted anonymously if necessary.

Second: academics take pains to ensure that opinions get heard, even though the penalties for speaking out are utterly trivial compared to the risks somebody in business runs saying what they really think. So instead of all this chest pounding about courage, it may be better to reflect for a moment on how often you actually do hear someone's honest opinion in a business context.
Jim Schulman
coffeecuppers.com
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Postby Goatherd on Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:37 pm

Speaking of real identities what's up with all the recent spam-members on the memberlist?
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Coffee is an event.
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Postby Robert Goble on Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:48 pm

Bots find the cached member link and sign up about 10 new members a day. They need to be approved by Alistair or myself to actually be active. Some of them are obvious and easy to wean out, but others sit in the inbox for a while with real applications (part of the reason there's a six month backlog in processing). This might be what you're seeing.

Can I also just say I've really been enjoying the forum and everyone's participation. Every day I learn so much and I just want to thank you good folks!

Cheers!

R.
Robert Goble
Elysian Coffee
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