simmermon vs. murky

[Robert Csar]

simmermon objects

murky responds

[Brett Hanson]

Is there any more to say on this topic? I feel like Nick has stated his case.

[xristrettox]

correct me if i'm wrong, but Robert posted because it is a bit of news (according the the washington post) and we are in the habit of linking to things that pertain to coffee.

this just happens to be about one of our own.

I think there could be some good conversation to be had about it.

Such as: What is the correct decorum to be expected from an owner? from an employee? from a customer? Should there be any expectations?

Like I've said before, modern day cafe culture is still being defined, and who's to say that a surly mouthed owner sticking up for his kids isn't right? And then, is such a reaction really benefiting anybody and does it spread the love and set an example for others?

[Brett Hanson]

Quite right. In all honesty I was just looking for a inconspicuous way to sneak in a movie reference.

[Keith]

good points Billy, I really see nothing wrong with Nick defending his employees, after all they are just enforcing a rule that he came up.. threatening to punch the guy in "dick", well that sounds like something my 12 year old might say, I hope humor is intended...Either way Nick isnt getting very good press in the nations capitol nowadays.

Rule or no rule, this customer obviously went overboard.

Whats interesting to me is the responses to the guys blog as well as the responses to the article written about Intelly dropping its 20's. Generally folks are infuriated at being told what they can and cant have. Does this reflect poorly on us? Should we just give the people what they want? Maybe not if they are demanding a 20 ounce Capp or a shot of espresso in a styrofoam cup...but espresso over ice on a hot day in Virginia? Its a wonder their arent riots.

by the way, on a hot day I like espresso over ice just fine.

[phaelon56]

What is the correct decorum to be expected from an owner? from an employee? from a customer? Should there be any expectations?

There should be and are expectations from all three parties whether they are conscious or unconscious. The owner should set an example and establish the tone for how problematic customers are to be handled. We all know that "the customer is always right" is not always a truism and can be taken only so far. There will always be a customer here and there who is looking to test the limits. I've been dealing with the public in a variety of business environments for 35 years and still find that rare occasion where I have to bite my tongue, grit my teeth and smile on the outside. But I won't be anyone's doormat and would never expect my employees to do so either.

That said - smoothing the ruffled feathers of an agitated and initially unhappy customer and winning them over and finding a compromise that at least lets them feel as though someone is listening and acknowledges their point of view... is as much a craft as making a great espresso drink. And some of the folks who start out as surly and disagreeable can become loyal customers and powerful word of mouth advertisers.

Like I've said before, modern day cafe culture is still being defined, and who's to say that a surly mouthed owner sticking up for his kids isn't right?

It's the owner's choice. He or she will have supporters who admire them for taking a certain position and others who believe that sticking up for your employees can be done in ways that don't involve surliness, threats or obscenities. As a business owner who deals with the public you become a public figure and your actions - the choices you make - can become business decisions whether you like it or not.

And then, is such a reaction really benefiting anybody and does it spread the love and set an example for others?

No and no.

In all honesty I was just looking for a inconspicuous way to sneak in a movie reference

I think Nick might just be positioning himself to get a starring role in the sequel to this movie - 'cause Steven Seagal is getting too old
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skgA9WHFTQ8

[xristrettox]

good question. why are we seeing such a responses in those comments sections?

i have a stinking suspicion that we aren't doing enough on our end to really educate the consumer. i would wager that most of us think we are doing enough if our cafes are busy. i mean, that kinda makes sense. i suppose a lesson to take away would be that no matter how successful you are you can always do more to educate your customers about coffee. so one day when you take a certain product away, or refuse a certain product, most will understand and see you as a purist and not as an elitist.

[Jason Haeger]

good question. why are we seeing such a responses in those comments sections?

i have a stinking suspicion that we aren't doing enough on our end to really educate the consumer. i would wager that most of us think we are doing enough if our cafes are busy. i mean, that kinda makes sense. i suppose a lesson to take away would be that no matter how successful you are you can always do more to educate your customers about coffee. so one day when you take a certain product away, or refuse a certain product, most will understand and see you as a purist and not as an elitist.

To many, the terms are 100% interchangeable.

The education about quality is in place. What's missing isn't the amount of education, but the type of education. What's missing is the education on the matter of respect for the coffee hierarchy, for lack of a better word.

This is at the heart of every controversy brought up in this thread, and in both instances, the issue of respect is not apparent to the customer(s).

[phaelon56]

I think it's also worth noting that none of us were present when the incident occurred nor was Nick. Every story has two sides and when each side presents their "version" of what happened it is understandably skewed a bit to support their own point of view. So was Simmermon a complete tool, rude to the barista and overreacting.... was the barista a bit condescending and failed to use a soft-pedal approach to "we can't do that for you"... or was it a bit of both? I don't have those answers.

I do know that there's a nice way to say no to almost anything and a lucid, cogent and understandable explanation goes a long way towards helping people understand your point of view and policies.

If a significant factor in the policy is the concern about people getting a double espresso over ice and then helping themselves to lots-o-milk or half 'n half from your condiment bar to make a bargain priced iced latte or breve then there are other solutions:

a) have the baristas control the milk and half 'n half during the warm months when this is likely to happen

b) Increase the price the price of espresso over ice by 1.5x to 2x relative to regular espresso shots

[Mike White]

If a significant factor in the policy is the concern about people getting a double espresso over ice and then helping themselves to lots-o-milk or half 'n half from your condiment bar to make a bargain priced iced latte or breve then there are other solutions:

a) have the baristas control the milk and half 'n half during the warm months when this is likely to happen

b) Increase the price the price of espresso over ice by 1.5x to 2x relative to regular espresso shots

Or just use 4oz paper cups. That's what we do. If they want it in a larger cup (say...12oz), we charge them for an iced latte no matter what they put in it.

Of course, this solution doesn't address the issue of "shocking" the espresso. But that's another story.

[John P]

I think it is clear to everyone it could have been handled better. While it seems like such a simple thing, we do a lot of role playing for these kinds of situations. If there is a policy, but no practice in enforcing it, or just cogently addressing the issue in a couple of sentences, then it will be impossible to react without emotion. All of these sorts of situations almost need to be a conditioned response. While you do not want to come off as being rehearsed... you do need to rehearse to avoid outcomes like this. If ownership, management, and employees really believe the policies, the sincerity will come across when they speak.

[Rich Westerfield]

Fark: Annoying prick with a blog meets pretentious coffee house asshole. Hilarity ensues

[James Hoffmann]

To me this brings up a whole host of interesting issues:

The negative effects of the overabundance of choice (and its resulting expectation)
Snobbery and antisnobbery
Product differentation
Communication and education
Value and percieved value of what we do

plus a whole lot more. For every 2 replies that made me hold my head in my hands there was 1 that seemed to get it or at least understand some aspect of Murky's side. I am sure things did not get communicated the way David wanted, and that must be frustrating for him and Nick in all this.

[ErinMeister]

I find the larger, complex customer-service issue raised fascinating, and I've been turning it over in my head with no real conclusion. There's a part of me that, from a hospitality POV, knee-jerk believes there's no real reason not to serve someone what they want when you have the ingredients handy, since there's no real accounting for taste. There is another part of me that places a respect for the integrity of a product and craft over that, and supports the notion of having unflinching store policies—of course, cases of discrimination notwithstanding. It has been gnawing at me, and I find myself frustratingly finding value in both sides' general arguments.

However, I may never understand why so many of the comments are so unabashedly mean and judgmental. What do people get out of being anonymously or quasi-anonymously rude, presumptuous and thoughtless? Sometimes the Internet makes my heart hurt, and I'm incredibly sorry that it's all gone down this way.

[Mike White]

Well said Meister.

[Tim Dominick]

My old business partner was a newspaperman in his youth and bestowed this wisdom on responding to criticism in print :

"never get into a war of words with someone who buys ink by the barrel"

We could update that to:

"never get into a war of words with someone who uploads data by the terabyte"

Things like this are best left to die without responses. Punching someone "in the dick" is not going to read well as a quote and sometimes we don't need to fuel the fire. Now this is no longer about coffee quality and more about personalities and egos.

[Keith]

alot of press has been generated from this...from India to Ottawa. Google Murky Coffee under news...

[phaelon56]

I It has been gnawing at me, and I find myself frustratingly finding value in both sides' general arguments.

I agree in both principle and practice.

However, I may never understand why so many of the comments are so unabashedly mean and judgmental. What do people get out of being anonymously or quasi-anonymously rude, presumptuous and thoughtless? Sometimes the Internet makes my heart hurt, and I'm incredibly sorry that it's all gone down this way.

You should see the user posted comments that accompany news stories appearing on the web site of my hometown newspaper ( see http://syracuse.com ). There is minimal moderation at best and no real control over registration. Users who are banned for bad behavior can use yet another user name and web mail address and sign up with a new account moments after being booted. Those laxities seem to bring out the worst in trolls. Every time there's any simple news story about a crime of some sort inside city limits a barrage of thinly and not so thinly veiled racist remarks ensues.

Did you see the comments appearing after the article on Intelly's 20 oz cup decision? That level of stupidity and downright mean hateful behavior pales in compassion to what I see here.

[Teri Lee]

I think we'll see more and more customers looking to improve their experience as the cost of living increases. With food, gas, and housing spiraling out of control (or at least seeming to, judging by the headlines) consumers are going to be much more choosy when parting with their disposable income. I suspect that for Simmermon, the issue wasn't necessarily about the policy, but a perceived devaluation of his money. Whether or not the "customer is always right," customers will always be asking for ways to be satisfied. Consumers who leave your shop unsatisfied are not going to feel good about the money spent on the product or service.

Besides, we have an industry that has trained consumers to customize their experience. Reversing that trend will be a challenge.

Personally, I do the iced espresso in a 4 oz. paper cup thing. Some people prefer the way it tastes.

I had a similar conflict once, though, when we instituted a "must be a cup" policy. The culture in the PNW is for customers to bring their own mugs - refusing to use their mugs would be tantamount to retail suicide for a cafe in my town. We drew the line at mugs, because we were getting all manner of vessels to fill with coffee - from mayonnaise jars to nalgene bottles. It was hard to articulate the reason, though. We just found it disrespectful to what we were doing. The customer who really had a problem with it was a server from a nearby restaurant, however. Eventually we just explained it by saying that we don't bring a used pizza box to his cafe for him to serve a sandwich in, did we now. No more complaints after that - now our customers are "retrained" to bring us a cup for their coffee!

[Peter G]

As a student of coffee and an observer of culture, this whole thing has been really interesting to me. First of all, how amazing that a simple disagreement over iced espresso could trigger umpteen different blog posts and links, references to "Rashomon" and "Six Easy Pieces", evoke BOTH "Third Wave Coffee" and "Web 2.0", and even get traditional media outlets into the mix.

And, I learned a bunch. I learned that there was actually a phrase, "Angry Internet Guy", that describes the bizarre mix of outrage, violence, and loss of common decency that happens to some people when they start posting and responding on the internet. We've seen these people here and elsewhere for years, it's comforting that there is actually a name for the syndrome.

And, as I perused the seemingly endless parries and retorts that populate the comments at the tail of each blog post, I recognized some recurring themes (folklorists would call them "motifs", internet people call them "memes") that seemed to pop up over and over again. These motifs are little ideas that persist in people's minds, and inform the way they see the world. I also saw many of these same ideas in the comments that were elicited by Intelligentsia's elimination of the 20 ounce cup. Anyway, I find them interesting:

Motif #1: "Nobody should tell me how to drink my $#@% coffee." Something along these lines was expressed over and over in the commentary which supported Mr. Simmermon's actions, and indeed informed Simmerman's actions themselves. This is interesting. It seems like there is an undercurrent here that there is something fundamentally unamerican about treating coffee as a special foodstuff. Why is this? Is it because of coffee's legacy as "the people's drink", the inexpensive fuel of the industrial revolution? There may be another contributing factor- as my friend David Fritzler pointed out, the person in question might have been more receptive to being "told" how to drink his coffee had the barista been dressed in a waiter's uniform rather than a t-shirt. This leads into some of the "evidence" that supports the "nobody should tell me how to drink my $#@% coffee" concept; namely that baristas are simply glorified fast-food employees, that coffee knowledge is specious, and that the whole "coffee is special" concept is a crock.

This motif is a dangerous one for our industry. I think we are in large part responsible for it ourselves- we have consistently maintained a low price point even for the best coffees, and designed even the best coffeehouses on the fast-food "pay at the register" design. Baristas are usually super-casual and frequently grungy, we sell more to-go products than anything else, we have incorporated fast food concepts into coffee service (serve-yourself condiments, for example). Can we blame our customers for being confused about the big deal we are making about specialty coffee, when we still serve it in paper cups and point to the sugar packets? I DO think that the related "Give me my damn coffee and I will do what I want with it" idea is directly related to the fact that coffeeshops as an industry have become totally reliant on to-go sales (it wasn't always like this... when I began in the industry in the late 80's, to-go made up a much smaller portion of our sales than it does in the average coffeehouse today.)

Motif #2: "the pretentious barista" This is of course related to the idea that a barista is simply a fast food employee, and is testing the limits of pretense and youthful self-indulgence by taking his or her craft seriously. This seems to be a real perception that is out there. Is that just par for the course in fine food, or is it something to be worried about?

Motif #3: "Fancy coffee is overpriced." I noticed lots of instructions on how to use canned supermarket coffee and home brewers to create "the same" experience for way cheaper at home. Also, there was a fair amount of speculation that coffeeshop owners are making a killing selling coffee and milk at wildly inflated prices. There is a certain lowbrow bravado in all that posturing, but it is certain that people continue to miss the idea that there is a fundamental difference between commodity and specialty coffee, and that it is more complicated than roasting daker. I would say that over 90% of the commenters seem completely unaware of the idea that the murky barista (or, indeed Intelligentsia as a company) is dealing with a completely different ingredient than is available from Starbucks or the supermarket.

This is what I am thinking, anyhow, as I read through all this.

Bestest,

Peter G

[Peter G]

I stand corrected: it's "Five Easy Pieces", not "Six Easy Pieces".

(ok, Cho, correct me one more time and I'll kick you in the.....wait....gotta control the nerd rage....)

pg

[John P]

Peter,

the most intelligent response in what is largely an unintelligible mess.

And I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment. If many shops continue to act like fast food, even in the midst of serving something excellent, how can we expect anything but "me first" behavior.

It has long been my belief that in order to move forward, we have to make to-go an oddity.... or simply eliminate it. I know it would work, but it would be a much easier task to start with this premise than to just cut to-go in one crazed swoop. It's worked for ages in many other cultures. If our coffee is so good.... Why can't we do the same?
I'm sure there are a few who already have.

[sutono]

If I remember to, when I am confronted by something like this in my own shop (dry capp, extra flavoring, a pound of something dark), I try to help the customer discover something good all on their own. Why not make the customer both drinks and let them decide which they prefer? By doing so, you are empowering the customer to learn something through experience- not to be told what is good and what is not. That might begin a path of education that leads to a real, not pretentious, appreciation for coffee.

If they get pissed, leave, and go to Starbucks, you are lucky if they blog. At least then you get the chance to explain your position.

Do you like being treated like crap by the guy at the record store? No. Of course not. Imagine that the clerk at the record store, instead of being such a cock puncher (thank you, the Onion), puts on a great album for you - something that you've never heard before, and would be unlikely to hear if you weren't introduced by this professional. Great, right? You might even buy it instead of walking out because they didn't have what you originally came in for.

[Marshall]

Motif #2: "the pretentious barista" This is of course related to the idea that a barista is simply a fast food employee, and is testing the limits of pretense and youthful self-indulgence by taking his or her craft seriously. This seems to be a real perception that is out there. Is that just par for the course in fine food, or is it something to be worried about?

If you think that's a problem now, Peter, just wait until McDonald's finishes its espresso rollout. They plan to refer to their service people as "baristas," and you will be sure to hear it repeated often in the advertising.

[Tim Dominick]

Motif #2: "the pretentious barista" This is of course related to the idea that a barista is simply a fast food employee, and is testing the limits of pretense and youthful self-indulgence by taking his or her craft seriously. This seems to be a real perception that is out there. Is that just par for the course in fine food, or is it something to be worried about?

If you think that's a problem now, Peter, just wait until McDonald's finishes its espresso rollout. They plan to refer to their service people as "baristas," and you will be sure to hear it repeated often in the advertising.

I can imagine the commercials will be a serious blow to the egos of pretentious barsitas everywhere. Those who can rise above it will be just fine.

The so-called pretentious barsita is all too real and all too common, and perhaps it is youthful self-indulgence or just as likely, a jaded facade built to hide the insecurity that comes with the continual reminder of just how insignificant their belief system is to most people who stand across the counter from them.

There is always hope, on Saturday I was in Portland and watched a Stumptown barista artfully deal with a woman who wanted a "reverse" latte with the shots poured over the milk. The barsita asked very nicely if she could make it the proper way, then added if the woman didn't like the drink she would make it as it was ordered. A pretentious barista would have scoffed and huffed, turning the situation into an instant confrontation. Instead, a confident and self-assured barista produced a latte with a lovely heart that drew an ooooh from the customer.