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strada mp without gicleurs

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:43 am
by Jimmy Oneschuk
Just wondering if anyone's tried it?

My thought was the paddle wouldn't have to work against the gicleur for ramp up, for more independent control, or is this theory junk?

Probably a better question for the tech oracles at LM USA, but thought I would ask here first.

Re: strada mp without gicleurs

PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:02 am
by Jimmy Oneschuk
I can see why someone might not have. Senor Gicleur lives in a much more inaccessible part of the machine, compared to LMs of yore. Part #2 on the diagram.

Re: strada mp without gicleurs

PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:52 pm
by Jimmy Oneschuk
Follow up:

Talked with LMUSA - MP pressure control is achieved only with the gicleur in place. Without it - the ramp up would be much the same as any LM without a gicleur. It seems part of the confusion is due to an EP prototype at coffeefest dressed up in MP yellow that had much more gentle pressure actuation and control than the production MP.

That said, is there anyone out there using the EP as a production workhorse? Virtually all of the EP in the field I know of are roasting room machines and it seems most coffee companies with big R&D budgets have opted for the MP for production (so I assume they're on to something...)

What I am curious mostly about are:

1. Durability of the gear pump. It just doesn't *seem* like it would be as good as a traditional pump - but does that perception have any basis in fact? (Hoping a long term EP user can share)

2. Electronic pressure reading versus analog: The appeal of a gauge on each group to watch the pressure and shot colour seem like a natural advantage in the production environment. This of course depends on using the EP like an MP (without programming)...

3. Ability to "ride the shot." I heard this term on an aussie forum as being the main advantage of the MP - but does this difference only depend on when the shot pressure is programmed (or is the pressure always programmed (ie generated digitally) even when the barista is controlling the paddle? Nick's explanation explained the problem brilliantly: channeling is exacerbated by a programmed profile. ... dification He mentioned you are able to work around this with a brilliant programming mod.


Essentially what I am really wondering is, if the EP has greater pressure control and feedback when pulling a shot - do these changes also eliminate some of the positive attributes of the MP's physics? Or what should I be looking for is a way to increase the MP's range of pressure feedback within my setup? Currently - the range of motion between 0-10 bar is about a cm or close to a 10th of the complete range of movement of the paddle.

Trying to get the forum rolling. I doubt I am the only one with this n00b frustration!

Re: strada mp without gicleurs

PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:17 am
by Jim Saborio
When I visited the Synesso factory in March, they were operating their Hydra / Sabre demo machine without gicleurs. I only remember that the pre-infusion flow didn't "look right". They had just started goofing around sans gicleurs so they didn't have much to say. I think they were trying to rid themselves of jet's scale problems by using the pump as a virtual gicleur.

It would be interesting to see where they were at with it.

Re: strada mp without gicleurs

PostPosted: Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:02 pm
by Jimmy Oneschuk
Ultimately, that would be the goal - to achieve the profiling via the pump only, rather than with the gicleur. The MP engages a microswitch for the pump's on/off operation. If you could override that switch with a heavy duty rheostat switch. Implication would be you'd need individual pumps. ... 4,919.html

Re: strada mp without gicleurs

PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:23 pm
by Ryan Willbur
The capabilities of the EP vs. MP have often been misconstrued. The EP is designed for full control of pressure both manually and through recordable programming. The Strada MP is traditional espresso technology using a paddle as an on/off switch. Within that on/off switch there is limited travel in the paddle that controls the opening and closing the the valve allowing water to pass through the group head. From the moment the switch begins to engage, the pump is running at 9 bars of pressure.

The Strada EP is much more flexible. Pressure is displayed digitally. To ensure accuracy of the display, you can control the offset of the read out through the technical menu of the electronics.

In the US, Strada MP's have been the popular choice for many production environments. However, there are EP's being used for retail all over the country, and the number is growing. Intelligentsia has made the move to Strada EP's in all the retail locations recently opened and soon to come.

Re: strada mp without gicleurs

PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:55 am
by Jimmy Oneschuk
Hi Ryan, thanks for the reply.

I think part of my confusion stems from the earlier LM literature showing the paddle travel. While I find the the manual paddle is an improvement over the mechanical paddle, it seems to me like there could be room for improvement in the actuation. Don't get me wrong, I love my MP - it keeps my staff engaged with the coffee, and compared to my GB5s, its a stratospheric improvement in temp stability - let alone the preinfusion.