Schectermatic Pump: how much we talkin' Andy?

la marzocco, synesso, simonelli, cimbali etc

Schectermatic Pump: how much we talkin' Andy?

Postby xristrettox on Fri May 12, 2006 5:48 pm

Okay, I'm intrigued with the Schectermatic (is that what were calling it?)

I can say that I have only had one shot off of it, and I can't vouch for how it affected the shot, but I can't believe that it's a bad idea.

A few questions Andy, if you're out there...

It seems fairly obvious that you would not be able to use two groupheads at the same time with it right? Can you hook up more than one of these things to a machine? I've heard that you can, but I am not a tech guy and wouldn't know where to begin.

Also... how much for one of these babies? I doubt you have several hundred in -stock (my guess is that you have one). If, and this is a big if, I was gonna use one of these on our new machine (which is purely hypothetical) at our new shop (which is just a rumor from what I hear). Could you make me one? Or, uhh... four....

Bring it.
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Postby bz on Sat May 13, 2006 7:56 am

i, too, had a shot or two. and i, too, had no idea what the 9.5-to-7.5 bar declining pressure profile was supposed to give me, or how it was fitted to the (very dark) gimme roast proffered.

i would love to see some spec-mongering on this. but, ah, the currrent placement of the contraption on andy's counter does not, it would appear, bode well for continued research and development.

prove me wrong, andy. 8)
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Postby Marshall on Sat May 13, 2006 8:28 am

bz wrote:i would love to see some spec-mongering on this. but, ah, the currrent placement of the contraption on andy's counter does not, it would appear, bode well for continued research and development.

prove me wrong, andy. 8)


It's not widely known, but Andy posts these pictures as a public service to husbands for their "See, honey, I'm not that crazy" pitches to their wives when they want to upgrade.
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Postby Keith on Sat May 13, 2006 11:01 am

Thanks Marshall, I didnt even THINK of that. Saving that picture to my desktop now.
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Re: how much we talkin' Andy?

Postby Andy Schecter on Sat May 13, 2006 6:44 pm

xristrettox wrote:Okay, I'm intrigued with the Schectermatic (is that what were calling it?)


Years ago I built a grinder timer for Ted Simpson of alt.coffee. He called it the "Schectermatic." I finally decided it would be fun to use the name. :-)

It seems fairly obvious that you would not be able to use two groupheads at the same time with it right? Can you hook up more than one of these things to a machine? I've heard that you can, but I am not a tech guy and wouldn't know where to begin.


If you want to use more than one group at a time, at the very least you would need one pump per group. Then it would be fairly simple to retrofit the pumps to most multigroup heat exchanger machines.

But on La Marzocco multigroups, it would be tough because all the groups are pressurized equally through the common boiler. I don't know much about Synessos, but I assume they work the same way.

In Charlotte though, Tomas set it up so that it worked fine on Gimme's Synesso, as long as you used only one group at a time (that's not acceptable for commercial use, of course).

Also... how much for one of these babies? I doubt you have several hundred in -stock (my guess is that you have one). If, and this is a big if, I was gonna use one of these on our new machine (which is purely hypothetical) at our new shop (which is just a rumor from what I hear). Could you make me one? Or, uhh... four....


I had them in stock, but Starbucks just ordered four thousand of them, so it'll take me a while to catch up....

Oops -- back to reality. :-)

This particular design was built partly with used stuff off eBay. New parts costs would be $1000+ (not counting labor), plus you need compressed air. If you get really serious about having one to experiment with, I'd work like hell to build one for you (and a few other people I can think of). It would take a little while.

I really do believe that having this fine control of a pulse-free pressure profile will ultimately prove its worth. But there's still lots of experimenting to do first. Aside from the Charlotte show, I've only had it up and running long enough to pull a few dozen shots.
Last edited by Andy Schecter on Mon May 15, 2006 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Robert Goble on Sat May 13, 2006 7:36 pm

very impressed man.
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Postby Kyle Glanville on Sun May 14, 2006 5:59 pm

Modding the Synesso to accomodate one of these pumps per group would not be too difficult. The current Linea/GB5 setup, on the other hand, would not work.
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Postby Andy Schecter on Sun May 14, 2006 6:04 pm

Kyle Glanville wrote:Modding the Synesso to accomodate one of these pumps per group would not be too difficult. The current Linea/GB5 setup, on the other hand, would not work.


Cool. So how is the Synesso water path different from the LM to make this work?
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Postby geir oglend on Sun May 14, 2006 8:19 pm

Just so I understand this right. On a conventional HX multi group machine, will you need one of your rigs per group, but only one compressor as long as the psi/cfm is more than adequate?
(profilable hydraulic pumps?)

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Postby Alistair Durie on Sun May 14, 2006 8:26 pm

Kyle Glanville wrote:Modding the Synesso to accomodate one of these pumps per group would not be too difficult. The current Linea/GB5 setup, on the other hand, would not work.


I asked Mark Barnett about a 'one pump per group' config and he said it was quite an involved modification. I think it pushed the price up something like 50%.

They did a 3 group for Cirqua to have different types of water for each group.
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Postby Andy Schecter on Mon May 15, 2006 2:46 am

geir wrote:Just so I understand this right. On a conventional HX multi group machine, will you need one of your rigs per group, but only one compressor as long as the psi/cfm is more than adequate?
(profilable hydraulic pumps?)


Definitely only one air compressor. The compressed air requirements are very small.
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Postby jepy on Mon May 15, 2006 7:26 am

What differs from the LM is the separate (as far as I know) lines through the steam tank. In this pic it shows a manifold before entering the steam tank, with this being the location that you have to separate the lines.
50% more for a 3 standard pump set up seams a bit much to add 2 pumps, and 2 relays with a bit different welding.
Now if it were 50% more for the PP system, that would be great

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Postby Alistair Durie on Mon May 15, 2006 9:44 am

yes perhaps i exagerated, it was more than i imagined, perhaps another 2-3000 but I will find out the correct figure and report back.
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Postby Andy Schecter on Mon May 15, 2006 6:43 pm

jepy wrote:What differs from the LM is the separate (as far as I know) lines through the steam tank. In this pic it shows a manifold before entering the steam tank, with this being the location that you have to separate the lines.


So on the Synesso, there's no main central brew boiler? There's just the small group boilers which are fed by heat exchangers in the steam boiler? Sounds pretty nice.
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Postby jepy on Mon May 15, 2006 9:35 pm

Just these single boilers

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Postby Kyle Glanville on Mon May 15, 2006 9:46 pm

yeah... the synesso is actually the shit.
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Postby xristrettox on Mon May 15, 2006 11:38 pm

With boilers that small, I would guess that there is a pre-boiler for the water entering the boiler?
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Postby jepy on Tue May 16, 2006 6:23 am

The previous pic shows where the 3 lines going to the brew tanks enter the steam tank to be pre heated. If your not using these tanks fast enough, the water comes out of the steam tank a bit too hot, and effects the temp in the brew tank. I like the idea of having a mixing valve on the other side with regular temp water, especially in a home environment where the frequency is much lower.
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Postby Kyle Glanville on Wed May 24, 2006 5:23 pm

..also, the heating elements are positively massive compared to the tank, and draw a lot of power to bring the machine up to temp right quick.
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Postby LiftOff on Wed May 24, 2006 6:20 pm

I've got a one group Synesso being built for me and it should be here in a couple weeks. I'll be using it at the roastery, I don't have a shop/bar.

I had a hard time deciding whether I wanted the stock .6 gicleur or the .8 - so I got both. For you folks with a lot more experience than me, which is the preferred size? Am I correct in my understanding that pre-infusion is only possible with the .8? Or is water line pressure combined with the .6 a sort of pre-infusion? It was explained to me and I thought I understood, but confusion still reigns.

If anyone is going to be in Phoenix in a few weeks and wants to drop by, your welcome. My skills would surely benefit!

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Postby geir oglend on Thu May 25, 2006 5:04 am

Congrats on your new machine. Don't think the size of the gicleurs has a large effect on the pre-infusion, rather slows the ramp-up time down!
Lower pressure on the by-pass will effect the pre-infusion more/better IMHO.
Good luck, geir.
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Postby jepy on Thu May 25, 2006 6:18 am

"Am I correct in my understanding that pre-infusion is only possible with the .8? Or is water line pressure combined with the .6 a sort of pre-infusion? It was explained to me and I thought I understood, but confusion still reigns."

If you were to click the brew lever all the way to the right, what I've seen is the .6's take about 2.5 seconds to go from 0-to full pressure, and the .8's take 1.5 seconds.
The Synesso infuses when the brew lever is in the middle position, where the puck is exposed to water line pressure only, then when the lever goes full right, the pump is activated. I don't think the bypass will effect pre-infusion, AFAIK the bypass just changes top end brew pressure.
When I've gone to shops with that use a Synesso,I've never seen the barista use the middle position on the brew lever, just "full right". So maybe if you use it that way, the .6 will give you a softer start by 1 second then the .8
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Postby luca on Thu May 25, 2006 4:01 pm

When I've gone to shops with that use a Synesso,I've never seen the barista use the middle position on the brew lever, just "full right".


The lever slams to the left on our Synesso ...

I like the manual preinfusion feature. With a naked PF, I tend to go to the middle position until I can see the coffee start to bead at the bottom of the basket, then slam it on full. Now, I haven't really done any taste comparisons with shots slammed on full, but it seems like the thing to do ;P

Whether or not you could realistically do this for every customer is probably another question ...

Cheers,

L

PS. Synesso = AWESOME
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Postby LiftOff on Thu May 25, 2006 4:14 pm

Thanks for the help!

If I'm understanding correctly - the difference in the gicleur size has nothing to do with the mechanical pre-infusion and the .6 is more forgiving of technique?

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Postby geir oglend on Thu May 25, 2006 4:25 pm

Pre-infusion as in by-pass will only work on one group at the time. Once the pump is running all the other groups are loaded as well. This is were .06 gicleurs helps with a slower ramp-up.
It takes my Faema e61 5-6 sec. before I notice any action in the cup. and I still end up with 1.25 once @ 24-26 sec.
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