espresso temps

elusive espresso... theorize, philosophize!

espresso temps

Postby gabelucas on Sat Apr 07, 2007 12:37 pm

If anyone wants to share, I am super curious what you are running your espresso at temp wise.

and possibly why? what does the coffee do at different temps? what are you going for?

I am sort of in love with the idea of figuring out different profiles for the same espresso through temp change alone then changing the other variables.


any sharing would be great. thanks in advance.
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Postby Ryan Willbur on Sat Apr 07, 2007 1:02 pm

We run our espresso on the lower end at 197.5. We've switched around a lot and found that there is a pleasant sweetness to our espresso and that it isn't too acidic or too flat. We used to run it right at 200, but found that the espresso picked up too much saltiness. Any lower and I feel that it would just turn to shit. At one point, my boss even cranked the machine up to 204... the results with our blend were terrible.
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Postby onocoffee on Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:44 pm

Gotta check the Linea this week but we target our temp to 201F for the Hines. Of course, we're running a Linea 3AV so there's temp variation between the groups. The temps end up being 202, 201, 200 or thereabouts.
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Postby Ryan Willbur on Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:00 pm

onocoffee wrote:Gotta check the Linea this week but we target our temp to 201F for the Hines. Of course, we're running a Linea 3AV so there's temp variation between the groups. The temps end up being 202, 201, 200 or thereabouts.


It's like an espresso temp buffet!
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Postby scottlucey on Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:32 am

i love our blend brewing at 197.
mr. chem-imbalanced blog said it best when mentioned "fall floral" notes, 197 brings that out best, a bit colder is too much like a new puppy jumping on your couch, and a bit hotter brings out too much of a roasty-toasty taste.
this is a fun game, play on.
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Postby gabelucas on Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:18 am

oh hell yeah this is fun!

I am not unhappy with the espresso we are flingin but I just see a potential there that is hidden in temp. I want the florals and aromatics big time.

Scott, what is in your espresso blend. You going heavy on any side of it? centrals?africans?


I'm a newborn at all the blend and how does it come together talk, so keep it comin'.
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Postby scottlucey on Mon Apr 09, 2007 8:09 am

brazil, new guinea, el sal, harar.
the first 3 are a balance, the harar is a small touch that does wonders.

is it the LAZERwolf you are playing with?
i've heard of the wolf, but want to hear more.
do tell.

howl
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Laservoolf

Postby gabelucas on Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:30 am

There are 9 coffees in the blend. I believe our temp is too high. So a few of us are going to experiment and see what kind of goodness we can pull from it and hopefully agree on a profile. It's decent in body, color and some nuances are there...but I want MORE MORE MORE!!!!

There was a friend in town who agreed and so this got the fire burnin' hotter for me to mess around with it.

some guat, some colombia, some yirg, some limmu, some rwanda, some nic, some sumatra, some harar, and some kenya.

ratios? uncertain. just a whole damn lot of coffee.

I'm a minimalist...it would be fantastic to build a 4 bean blend. I want to learn more about blending...so maybe I will get the go ahead to just try stuff out. only way to learn is to try a little bit o' this, try a little bit o' that? keep it or scratch it and keep on movin' on...right?
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Postby scottlucey on Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:49 am

9?! holy mother!
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Postby gabelucas on Mon Apr 09, 2007 9:57 am

of God. Indeed sir.


show me what yer workin' with...shake ya ass.



workin with 9!!!!
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Re: Laservoolf

Postby nick on Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:19 am

gabelucas wrote:There are 9 coffees in the blend.

....

ratios? uncertain. just a whole damn lot of coffee.


Anything over 5 coffees, and you run into the problem of losing control of your components. Unless your "componentry" is made up of 3 or 4 "groups" of coffees (A, B, C are natural-process coffees for body... D, E, and F provide the chocolate notes, etc.), there is the high probability that one or more of your components doesn't make it into the shot of espresso at all... or at the very least, in diminished amounts.

Such is the conundrum of espresso blends.

When we were in Florence, Princey, Andy Barnett and I visited a roastery whose signature blend was an 11-bean blend. :roll:
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Postby gabelucas on Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:29 am

well said Mr. Cho. Well said.
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Re: Laservoolf

Postby barry on Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:31 am

nick wrote:Anything over 5 coffees, and you run into the problem of losing control of your components.



yep. at 9 coffees, i'd say that every shot is an adventure.
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Postby phaelon56 on Mon Apr 09, 2007 12:05 pm

Gabe - your retail area is running an FB-70 - right? If that's the case (and I do recall seeing one there when I visited in January) then you should have the option to set two of the groups to one temp setting and the other two to a different one. This can be quite useful if you're running two different blends. But do you have or have access to a machine with easily adjustable temps and a preheated brew boiler - maybe a one group Synesso or the new LM GS3? That will make your trial and error testing much faster and simpler.
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Re: Laservoolf

Postby Mark Prince on Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:42 pm

nick wrote:When we were in Florence, Princey, Andy Barnett and I visited a roastery whose signature blend was an 11-bean blend. :roll:


It wasn't just that place either - I got the sense from some limited research that it's a "badge of honour" with some roasteries over there to have 10+ beans in their blend.

I'm with the sorta concensus here - anything over 5, 6 beans in a blend is just asking for adventure. But that said, I love Yemen Mocha and every single cup brewed and shot pulled is an adventure.

But if consistency in shots is a goal, you're really fighting that concept if you put 7, 8, 10, 11 or more different origins in that blend.

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Postby gabelucas on Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:42 pm

phaelon56 wrote:Gabe - your retail area is running an FB-70 - right?


not anymore....we just installed a 4 group GB5 about 6 weeks ago! So there is no reason to be trying this stuff at different temps right? I will let you know what we come up with for sure though!


thanks for the tip though, still very helpful.
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Re: Laservoolf

Postby gabelucas on Mon Apr 09, 2007 2:43 pm

MarkP wrote: if consistency in shots is a goal, you're really fighting that concept if you put 7, 8, 10, 11 or more different origins in that blend.

Mark



thanks Mark, these are my feelings too. But I am gonna try and do the best I can with the blend I have since it is the only one I have to work with!
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Re: Laservoolf

Postby barry on Mon Apr 09, 2007 6:37 pm

MarkP wrote:But if consistency in shots is a goal, you're really fighting that concept if you put 7, 8, 10, 11 or more different origins in that blend.



a few years ago I had David Ross do the math on blends... i've got the email someplace... or maybe it was on a.c.
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Re: Laservoolf

Postby Jim Schulman on Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:02 am

a few years ago I had David Ross do the math on blends... i've got the email someplace... or maybe it was on a.c.[/quote]

I remember the result: The math is simple 101 stats, but like all statistics, it drags on into multiple steps

-- the variance of a proportion is p*(1-p), where p is the proportion.

-- roughly 95% of the time your actual proportions will be within two standard deviations of the nominal proportion, which is, the square root of the variance divided by the number of beans used for the shot.

-- there's roughly 7 to 10 beans per gram of coffee (depending on screen size and roast)

Suppose you have a constituent at 10%. You are dosing at 18 grams or roughly 150 beans. The plus or minus is 2*sqrt(0.1*0.9/150) or 4.88%. That means your 10% constituetnt can show up anywhere from 5% to 15% on a given shot. A 50% constituent is somewhat safer, showing up at around 42% to 58%.

This calculation excludes the effect of different coffees having different beans sizes. If the blend contains beans of different sizes, the smaller beans will migrate to the bottom of the package, the larger ones the top. This will add a systematic error to the random one described above.

Since we went through this exercise, I've been blending with constituents that are palatable, or close to it, as SOs. That way the shot to shot variations in proportions don't produce something undrinkable, just something interestingly different.

After all, while Emerson may be right about only narrow minded people expecting consistency; even broad minded ones will expect all the inconsistencies to be pleasant.
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so onto sharing temps...

Postby gabelucas on Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:00 am

ok, with this said about the 9 beans....any temp results? just for your espresso and what you are pulling it at? what are you getting from it that you possibly didn't get at a different temperature?


share, discuss!
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Re: so onto sharing temps...

Postby phaelon56 on Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:59 am

gabelucas wrote:ok, with this said about the 9 beans....any temp results? just for your espresso and what you are pulling it at? what are you getting from it that you possibly didn't get at a different temperature?


From the very simplest high level perspective I think it's safe to assume that pulling any shot at far too low a temperature (for those beans or that blend) will usually result in a "sour" shot and too hight a temp will result in "bitter".

That's a gross oversimplification but one that's useful when the best accuracy you can get is... let's say with a stock Linea and a good barista... to stay within a range of 3 degrees or so of the target brew temp.

But when you suddenly have PID and preheated brew boilers with the potential for dialing in temp differences of a 0.50 degree F (I think Synesso's newest firmware actually gets granularity down to 0.10 degree F) it opens a huge range of new possibilities.

A few things to keep in mind for your testing (you've probably already thought of these):
    * Multiple testers on multiple occasions for better statistical validity and to account for a wider range of taste

    * Multiple batches of the same blend from different roast sessions

    * Allow brew boilers stablize for a bit after you've changed temperatures


I was fortunate courtesy of Andy S to test drive a GS3 for a few hours when it was in beta testing. We wre both certain that we detected taste differences in shots that were brewed 0.50 F different form one another. But then he made the valid observation that we pulled the shots only a minute or so after changing the temp - not nearly enough time for the boiler in the GS3 to stabilize at the new temp. And the GB5 brew boiler is larger - thus a longer time is required to reach target temp.
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Postby Bjorn Helberg on Thu Apr 12, 2007 2:02 pm

Ryan Willbur wrote:
onocoffee wrote:Gotta check the Linea this week but we target our temp to 201F for the Hines. Of course, we're running a Linea 3AV so there's temp variation between the groups. The temps end up being 202, 201, 200 or thereabouts.


We have set the temerature on both the old Linea and the Synesso to 92 c.
The Linea being not as accurate as the Synesso. It works very well with the blend from Solberg & Hansen that we're using - different blends = different temp.

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Postby jakethecoffeelover on Sun May 20, 2007 12:22 pm

Bear in mind that all coffees have very dynamic flavour profiles in the basket. Put 8 beans in one blend and I guarantee one coffee's flavour potential will get raaaaaaped by the temperature settings. It's hard enough to roast just one or two coffees to show their potential at a specific temperature, not to mention the kind of delicate song-and-dance you'd have to master with some kind of 11-bean hodgepodge blend.
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Postby barry on Mon May 21, 2007 10:50 am

jakethecoffeelover wrote: some kind of 11-bean hodgepodge blend.


11-bean blend = crapshoot

every shot will a different blend.
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Postby Kevin Cash on Mon May 21, 2007 11:21 am

you beat me to it. I've tasted a 12bean blend here locally and it tasted like a different coffee every shot.

I'm running a Sulawesi, Harrar, Costa and pulling shots a little cool. I feel the sweetness comes through at the lower temps. As to what temp I am pulling exactly, I don't know since I have no accurate way of testing, other than my pallete. A PID is on the way though, so I'll chime in later.
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