Drinking coffee from a wine glass

[Jim Schulman]

I did some cupping today by decanting the coffee into red wine glasses using a fine (teapot) sieve.

As expected, the aroma was much easier to catch, since the tulip shape of the cup concentrates them, and the rim covers the nose as you sip.

What I didn't expect was an odd neuronal or psychological effect. The flavors in the cup were easier to discern. The glass provides an aroma hit as one sips/slurps (no need for a spoon with these glasses). I'm guessing this primes the brain to expect certain flavors. It's much easier to tell which flavors agree with the aroma, and which ones are noise or taints.

I'm not clever enough to figure out a way of blind testing this; but sipping the same brew from a cup and from a wine glass was proof enough for me.

Another thing -- hot, hot ,hot -- hold it by the stem.

[onocoffee]

Jim-

Don't know which glasses you used but my understanding is that Riedel makes a line of glassware specifically to bring out the flavors and nuances of the intended wine/spirit. Perhaps there's a way to correlate their line of glassware to coffee origins?

[Brett Hanson]

Another thing -- hot, hot ,hot -- hold it by the stem.

Maybe bodum needs to make their next double-walled glass in this shape.

[Mark Prince]

Speaking of Reidel, how could a company so reknowned for making well matched wine vessels (the stemless models put aside fo a moment) make such horrible espresso cups.

And speaking of coffee in glasses....

Paul Bassett's TV show from Australia feature a four part segment where he, Inny and another fellow tried to match an espresso blend to one of Australia's most famous wines (outside of Penfolds' Grange); when it came time to put the blend to the test, they went into the cave of the winery, and Paul pulled the shots using a Sunbeam home machine (a functional equivalent of the Krups XP4xxx line) into what I think were Reidel glasses.

I talked to both Paul and Inny about this, joking about it, and both chastised me, saying that it brought out aromas in the espresso that they otherwise couldn't detect. Sure, temperatures took a hit, but both said it allowed them more ability to see if their experiment matched up to the subtleties of the wine they were attempting to mirror. I think Inny even suggested that they had a choice - everything in espresso cups, or everything in wine glasses, and they went with th latter.

Mark

[onocoffee]

Speaking of Reidel, how could a company so reknowned for making well matched wine vessels (the stemless models put aside fo a moment) make such horrible espresso cups.

How can we expect them to do any better when we're failing at bringing the nuances of coffee to the masses?

[Mark Prince]

How can we expect them to do any better when we're failing at bringing the nuances of coffee to the masses?

LOL! Speak for yourself

Mark

[Jimmy Oneschuk]

Would half filling one of the jumbo Bodum pavina cups not accomplish this?

I've been thinking about this, how to expo super premium coffees, Novo's Aricha or Beloya... I'm thinking 20oz Pavina cups, half full might be the way...

[Jim Schulman]

Would half filling one of the jumbo Bodum pavina cups not accomplish this?

I've been thinking about this, how to expo super premium coffees, Novo's Aricha or Beloya... I'm thinking 20oz Pavina cups, half full might be the way...

I don't know the cups you're talking about, but I think after a few days of trying various glasses I have some think the shape you want is close to the standard red wine glass: a tulip that holds the aromas and is wide enough at the top so that it covers the nose as you sip. Catching the aroma when sipping is what allows these glasses to add some clarity to the coffee flavor. A double walled, stemless glass, or alternatively a bowl, with these dimensions would be perfect.

If one used these for cupping, then, for breaking the crust and skimming the top, one would need to bend the spoons, so they look like a little soup ladles. That way they could be used going straight down into the half filled container.

BTW, the half life of my stemware is around 7 months. For klutzes like me, I recommend the Schott Zwiesel titanium crystal, which bounce when dropped on the floor, still have that nice crystal bell ringing sound, and are quite cheap -- $50 to $60 for sets of 6)

[HD]

The Riedel "O" series chardonnay glasses fit under both spouts of the Linea, better still, under a bottomless pf, for a more exclusive aroma and nose/flavour assessment. Best to partner with shots in demitasse for assessing crema and mouthfeel (both tend to lose traction in such huge bulbous glasses).

[Matthew P. Williams]

I was reaching for one of my big Syrah style wine glasses for coffee when one of my Belgian beer snifters caught my eye. It's bulbous, with a narrow opening, and more stout and robust than a wine glass. It definitely did the trick...

[Kyle Larson]

I am so glad someone brought this topic up. For a couple of months now I have been tasting espresso in wine glasses, and I really think it is a great exercise. Obviously, due to the size of the glass, you will lose a bit of viscosity, but the aromatics are ten fold(which, in espresso, I believe to be the most important thing).

It's pretty cool, and I would encourage anyone to at least play with it when you're trying to get a new barista excited about coffee or learn a little bit more yourself.

Kyle

[Duck]

How interesting. I'll test it out and report back.


-- Duck

[123coffee]

My Dad would always check color, smell and taste of drip-brewed coffee by using an uncut stemmed red wine glass. He always put his cupping spoon in the glass before pouring in the hot coffee. This was to conduct the excess heat and prevent the glass from bursting.

-Donald Schoenholt

[Chris Davidson]

Got back from Carl Staub's Agtron workshop last week and he's big on the wine glass coffee experience; not only for espresso and slow-brew coffee, but for evaluating fragrance of dry coffee grounds as well! He'd fill to the broadest, fattest bredth of the glass and swirl like mad, theory being that volatile aromatics (no matter where they're coming from) will be corralled by the converging walls of the glass, concentrate towards the narrow opening and make for a more intense olfactory experience. Damned if it's not true...

[Mark Prince]

The more I think about this wine glass theory, the more I think the 8oz bodum Pavina may deserve being looked at as an evaluative tool for espresso. It has a similar shape to a standard white wine glass; on the down side, evaluating colour, texture, etc may be a bit more hard because you have to look through two panes of borosilicate glass, but on the upside, it will retain heat a lot better than a normal (or crystal) wine glass.

I've got a bunch of the 8oz bodums collecting dust. Time to pull them out...

Mark

[Alistair Durie]

I really don't like what the double walled glasses do for espresso. When we first got them I was thrilled, but we never use them for hot espresso drinks anymore. It keeps the shot too hot. The amount of heat trapped is so efficient that the shot stays hot for too long. It also does something strange to crema, as heat is forced only upward instead of sunk evenly into a ceramic cup.

For brewed coffee, again, they just keep things too hot.

[Jim Schulman]

For brewed coffee, I prefer a vessel that cools relatively quickly, since a good coffee tends to stay interesting and change in flavor as it cools off. One nice thing about a tulip shaped glass or cup, is one can still get the aroma when the coffee is cool.

Espresso I drink too fast to tell; but I do prefer to pull them into unheated, or ideally, very slightly heated to around body temperature cups.

[Mark Prince]

I really don't like what the double walled glasses do for espresso. When we first got them I was thrilled, but we never use them for hot espresso drinks anymore. It keeps the shot too hot. The amount of heat trapped is so efficient that the shot stays hot for too long. It also does something strange to crema, as heat is forced only upward instead of sunk evenly into a ceramic cup.

I'm not entirely with you on the 3oz Pavinas, Alistair, (for instance, they're still my preferred vessel for macchiatos, though I do use them "cold", not preheated) but you raise an interesting point I hadn't heard discussed before - the effect on heat rising and what it does to crema.

But... for the sake of some discussion, I was thinking about using the 8oz Pavinas for evaluating espresso. The one thing that is a bit difficult for me to adjust to is worrying about the heat loss from a wine glass when it's holding only 30mls of liquid (or whatever, up to 60mls). Maybe some will disagree with me, but unlike non-espresso brewed coffee (which does show some interesting and pleasing characteristics as it cools down when the bean's a champ), I think espresso degrades pretty badly, no matter the quality of the bean, as it cools down. Maybe the 8oz pavinas can control this better, but still give that "big bowl for aroma" effect that wine glasses give to, well, wine.

I wanna dig out those pavinas tomorrow and give it a shot.

Mark
PS - did you get a chance to see Jack yesterday?

[Kevin Cash]

I really don't like what the double walled glasses do for espresso. When we first got them I was thrilled, but we never use them for hot espresso drinks anymore. It keeps the shot too hot.

I only use my 3oz Pavinas to demonstrate how a proper shot looks after pulled. The heat issue is a huge problem. Even when pulled into a room temp glass, just seems overly hot for me to enjoy immediately.

Personally, I like a nice wide smooth rim on my demis, where the pavina is just too thin/sharp for my liking. They certainly look gorgeous, and the double walls perform as touted, but I'll keep my ceramic in rotation.

I'm curious about the wine glass for evaluation, but can't see actually drinking a shot from a wine glass. But I will certainly keep an open mind with this experiment. My girlfriend will have fun taking shots at me when she witnesses me sipping from our wine glasses. Just when she thought I couldn't geek out any more................

[barrett]

The shape of glassware is HUGE. When selecting a line for the opening of this new restaurant I'm involved with, we tested some other lines side by side riedel, and it was amazing the different floral characteristics we got from the different glassware.

I've heard that Robert Parker uses a sangiovese style glass as his default tasting glass.
http://www.wineglassguide.com/sangiovese.html (Which can be seen here)

[Mark Prince]

The shape of glassware is HUGE. When selecting a line for the opening of this new restaurant I'm involved with, we tested some other lines side by side riedel, and it was amazing the different floral characteristics we got from the different glassware.

I've heard that Robert Parker uses a sangiovese style glass as his default tasting glass.
http://www.wineglassguide.com/sangiovese.html (Which can be seen here)

Those be my default white wine glasses! Had no idea that Mr. Parker prefers them.

I scored a really nice set of four (so got two boxes) at Sip Wines in Vancouver a few years ago for cost $48 per box).

Mark

[barrett]

Mine are all experienced restaurant glassware... good enough for me, not good enough to use on the floor. They have a little chip or defect here or there, but the price was perfect.