Drinking coffee from a wine glass

coffee coffee coffee coffee coffee

Drinking coffee from a wine glass

Postby Jim Schulman on Sat Jun 23, 2007 6:47 pm

I did some cupping today by decanting the coffee into red wine glasses using a fine (teapot) sieve.

As expected, the aroma was much easier to catch, since the tulip shape of the cup concentrates them, and the rim covers the nose as you sip.

What I didn't expect was an odd neuronal or psychological effect. The flavors in the cup were easier to discern. The glass provides an aroma hit as one sips/slurps (no need for a spoon with these glasses). I'm guessing this primes the brain to expect certain flavors. It's much easier to tell which flavors agree with the aroma, and which ones are noise or taints.

I'm not clever enough to figure out a way of blind testing this; but sipping the same brew from a cup and from a wine glass was proof enough for me.

Another thing -- hot, hot ,hot -- hold it by the stem.
Jim Schulman
coffeecuppers.com
Jim Schulman
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:56 am
Location: Chicago

Postby onocoffee on Sat Jun 23, 2007 7:40 pm

Jim-

Don't know which glasses you used but my understanding is that Riedel makes a line of glassware specifically to bring out the flavors and nuances of the intended wine/spirit. Perhaps there's a way to correlate their line of glassware to coffee origins?
Jay Caragay

Lono
new explorations in coffee + cuisine.
onocoffee
 
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:30 pm
Location: Towson, MD
full name: Jay Caragay
company: spiral jetty
: www.sprocoffee.com
: onocoffee.blogspot.com

Postby Brett Hanson on Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:29 pm

Another thing -- hot, hot ,hot -- hold it by the stem.


Maybe bodum needs to make their next double-walled glass in this shape.
Brett Hanson
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:45 pm
Location: Seattle, WA
full name: Brett Hanson
company: nerdist
: http://www.nerdist.com
: http://twitter.com/smoovebcoffee

Postby Mark Prince on Sun Jun 24, 2007 3:40 pm

Speaking of Reidel, how could a company so reknowned for making well matched wine vessels (the stemless models put aside fo a moment) make such horrible espresso cups.

And speaking of coffee in glasses....

Paul Bassett's TV show from Australia feature a four part segment where he, Inny and another fellow tried to match an espresso blend to one of Australia's most famous wines (outside of Penfolds' Grange); when it came time to put the blend to the test, they went into the cave of the winery, and Paul pulled the shots using a Sunbeam home machine (a functional equivalent of the Krups XP4xxx line) into what I think were Reidel glasses.

I talked to both Paul and Inny about this, joking about it, and both chastised me, saying that it brought out aromas in the espresso that they otherwise couldn't detect. Sure, temperatures took a hit, but both said it allowed them more ability to see if their experiment matched up to the subtleties of the wine they were attempting to mirror. I think Inny even suggested that they had a choice - everything in espresso cups, or everything in wine glasses, and they went with th latter.

Mark
Mark Prince
Just in it for the espresso and coffee, Vancouver BC
Mark Prince
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:13 am
Location: vancouver bc
full name: Mark Prince
company: CoffeeGeek.com
: www.CoffeeGeek.com

Postby onocoffee on Sun Jun 24, 2007 7:21 pm

Mark Prince wrote:Speaking of Reidel, how could a company so reknowned for making well matched wine vessels (the stemless models put aside fo a moment) make such horrible espresso cups.



How can we expect them to do any better when we're failing at bringing the nuances of coffee to the masses?
Jay Caragay

Lono
new explorations in coffee + cuisine.
onocoffee
 
Posts: 1209
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2005 1:30 pm
Location: Towson, MD
full name: Jay Caragay
company: spiral jetty
: www.sprocoffee.com
: onocoffee.blogspot.com

Postby Mark Prince on Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:52 pm

onocoffee wrote:How can we expect them to do any better when we're failing at bringing the nuances of coffee to the masses?


LOL! Speak for yourself :)

Mark
Mark Prince
Just in it for the espresso and coffee, Vancouver BC
Mark Prince
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:13 am
Location: vancouver bc
full name: Mark Prince
company: CoffeeGeek.com
: www.CoffeeGeek.com

Postby Jimmy Oneschuk on Mon Jun 25, 2007 6:06 am

Would half filling one of the jumbo Bodum pavina cups not accomplish this?

I've been thinking about this, how to expo super premium coffees, Novo's Aricha or Beloya... I'm thinking 20oz Pavina cups, half full might be the way...
Jimmy Oneschuk
 
Posts: 664
Joined: Wed Jun 22, 2005 3:34 pm
Location: Saskatoon
full name: Jimmy Oneschuk
company: Museo
: espressolab.ca

Postby Jim Schulman on Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:43 pm

Jimmy Oneschuk wrote:Would half filling one of the jumbo Bodum pavina cups not accomplish this?

I've been thinking about this, how to expo super premium coffees, Novo's Aricha or Beloya... I'm thinking 20oz Pavina cups, half full might be the way...


I don't know the cups you're talking about, but I think after a few days of trying various glasses I have some think the shape you want is close to the standard red wine glass: a tulip that holds the aromas and is wide enough at the top so that it covers the nose as you sip. Catching the aroma when sipping is what allows these glasses to add some clarity to the coffee flavor. A double walled, stemless glass, or alternatively a bowl, with these dimensions would be perfect.

If one used these for cupping, then, for breaking the crust and skimming the top, one would need to bend the spoons, so they look like a little soup ladles. That way they could be used going straight down into the half filled container.

BTW, the half life of my stemware is around 7 months. For klutzes like me, I recommend the Schott Zwiesel titanium crystal, which bounce when dropped on the floor, still have that nice crystal bell ringing sound, and are quite cheap -- $50 to $60 for sets of 6)
Jim Schulman
coffeecuppers.com
Jim Schulman
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:56 am
Location: Chicago

Postby HD on Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:14 pm

The Riedel "O" series chardonnay glasses fit under both spouts of the Linea, better still, under a bottomless pf, for a more exclusive aroma and nose/flavour assessment. Best to partner with shots in demitasse for assessing crema and mouthfeel (both tend to lose traction in such huge bulbous glasses).
Hazel de los Reyes
Coffee Alchemy
HD
 
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue May 23, 2006 5:22 pm
Location: Australia

Postby Matthew P. Williams on Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:24 pm

I was reaching for one of my big Syrah style wine glasses for coffee when one of my Belgian beer snifters caught my eye. It's bulbous, with a narrow opening, and more stout and robust than a wine glass. It definitely did the trick...
Mmm, juicy. Tastes like juice. Bean juice.
Matthew P. Williams
 
Posts: 94
Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:57 pm
Location: San Francisco, CA
full name: Matthew P. Williams
company: Four Barrel Coffee

Postby Kyle Larson on Thu Jun 28, 2007 7:58 pm

I am so glad someone brought this topic up. For a couple of months now I have been tasting espresso in wine glasses, and I really think it is a great exercise. Obviously, due to the size of the glass, you will lose a bit of viscosity, but the aromatics are ten fold(which, in espresso, I believe to be the most important thing).

It's pretty cool, and I would encourage anyone to at least play with it when you're trying to get a new barista excited about coffee or learn a little bit more yourself.

Kyle
Kyle Larson
 
Posts: 158
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2004 5:47 am
Location: Portland, Oregon
full name: Kyle Larson
company: Stumptown Coffee Roasters

Postby Duck on Thu Jun 28, 2007 8:40 pm

How interesting. I'll test it out and report back.


-- Duck
Aaron Duckworth
Kansas City, MO USA
http://coffeewithaduck.com/
Duck
 
Posts: 69
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:02 am
Location: Kansas City, MO
full name: Aaron Duckworth
company: Coffee with A. Duck
: http://coffeewithaduck.com/
: http://twitter.com/A_Duck

Postby 123coffee on Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:16 am

My Dad would always check color, smell and taste of drip-brewed coffee by using an uncut stemmed red wine glass. He always put his cupping spoon in the glass before pouring in the hot coffee. This was to conduct the excess heat and prevent the glass from bursting.

-Donald Schoenholt
123coffee
 
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:18 pm
Location: Brooklyn, New York USA
full name: Donald Schoenholt
company: Gillies Coffee Co.
: www.gilliescoffee.com

Postby Chris Davidson on Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:58 pm

Got back from Carl Staub's Agtron workshop last week and he's big on the wine glass coffee experience; not only for espresso and slow-brew coffee, but for evaluating fragrance of dry coffee grounds as well! He'd fill to the broadest, fattest bredth of the glass and swirl like mad, theory being that volatile aromatics (no matter where they're coming from) will be corralled by the converging walls of the glass, concentrate towards the narrow opening and make for a more intense olfactory experience. Damned if it's not true...
Chris Davidson
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat May 20, 2006 11:16 am
Location: Seattle, WA USA

Postby Mark Prince on Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:46 pm

The more I think about this wine glass theory, the more I think the 8oz bodum Pavina may deserve being looked at as an evaluative tool for espresso. It has a similar shape to a standard white wine glass; on the down side, evaluating colour, texture, etc may be a bit more hard because you have to look through two panes of borosilicate glass, but on the upside, it will retain heat a lot better than a normal (or crystal) wine glass.

I've got a bunch of the 8oz bodums collecting dust. Time to pull them out...

Mark
Mark Prince
Just in it for the espresso and coffee, Vancouver BC
Mark Prince
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:13 am
Location: vancouver bc
full name: Mark Prince
company: CoffeeGeek.com
: www.CoffeeGeek.com

Postby Alistair Durie on Sat Jul 07, 2007 12:05 am

I really don't like what the double walled glasses do for espresso. When we first got them I was thrilled, but we never use them for hot espresso drinks anymore. It keeps the shot too hot. The amount of heat trapped is so efficient that the shot stays hot for too long. It also does something strange to crema, as heat is forced only upward instead of sunk evenly into a ceramic cup.

For brewed coffee, again, they just keep things too hot.
Alistair Durie
Elysian Coffee | photos | tweets
Alistair Durie
admin
 
Posts: 1002
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:59 am
Location: Vancouver Canada
full name: Alistair Durie
company: Elysian Coffee
: www.elysiancoffee.com
: www.coffeed.com

Postby Jim Schulman on Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:25 am

For brewed coffee, I prefer a vessel that cools relatively quickly, since a good coffee tends to stay interesting and change in flavor as it cools off. One nice thing about a tulip shaped glass or cup, is one can still get the aroma when the coffee is cool.

Espresso I drink too fast to tell; but I do prefer to pull them into unheated, or ideally, very slightly heated to around body temperature cups.
Jim Schulman
coffeecuppers.com
Jim Schulman
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Tue Apr 11, 2006 10:56 am
Location: Chicago

Postby Mark Prince on Sat Jul 07, 2007 1:58 am

Alistair Durie wrote:I really don't like what the double walled glasses do for espresso. When we first got them I was thrilled, but we never use them for hot espresso drinks anymore. It keeps the shot too hot. The amount of heat trapped is so efficient that the shot stays hot for too long. It also does something strange to crema, as heat is forced only upward instead of sunk evenly into a ceramic cup.


I'm not entirely with you on the 3oz Pavinas, Alistair, (for instance, they're still my preferred vessel for macchiatos, though I do use them "cold", not preheated) but you raise an interesting point I hadn't heard discussed before - the effect on heat rising and what it does to crema.

But... for the sake of some discussion, I was thinking about using the 8oz Pavinas for evaluating espresso. The one thing that is a bit difficult for me to adjust to is worrying about the heat loss from a wine glass when it's holding only 30mls of liquid (or whatever, up to 60mls). Maybe some will disagree with me, but unlike non-espresso brewed coffee (which does show some interesting and pleasing characteristics as it cools down when the bean's a champ), I think espresso degrades pretty badly, no matter the quality of the bean, as it cools down. Maybe the 8oz pavinas can control this better, but still give that "big bowl for aroma" effect that wine glasses give to, well, wine.

I wanna dig out those pavinas tomorrow and give it a shot.

Mark
PS - did you get a chance to see Jack yesterday?
Mark Prince
Just in it for the espresso and coffee, Vancouver BC
Mark Prince
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:13 am
Location: vancouver bc
full name: Mark Prince
company: CoffeeGeek.com
: www.CoffeeGeek.com

Postby Kevin Cash on Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:57 am

Alistair Durie wrote:I really don't like what the double walled glasses do for espresso. When we first got them I was thrilled, but we never use them for hot espresso drinks anymore. It keeps the shot too hot.


I only use my 3oz Pavinas to demonstrate how a proper shot looks after pulled. The heat issue is a huge problem. Even when pulled into a room temp glass, just seems overly hot for me to enjoy immediately.

Personally, I like a nice wide smooth rim on my demis, where the pavina is just too thin/sharp for my liking. They certainly look gorgeous, and the double walls perform as touted, but I'll keep my ceramic in rotation.

I'm curious about the wine glass for evaluation, but can't see actually drinking a shot from a wine glass. But I will certainly keep an open mind with this experiment. My girlfriend will have fun taking shots at me when she witnesses me sipping from our wine glasses. Just when she thought I couldn't geek out any more................ :shock:
Rock out with your cup out...
Kevin Cash
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2006 4:52 am
Location: Columbus, Ohio
full name: Kevin Cash
company: Cafe Brioso

Postby barrett on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:59 am

The shape of glassware is HUGE. When selecting a line for the opening of this new restaurant I'm involved with, we tested some other lines side by side riedel, and it was amazing the different floral characteristics we got from the different glassware.

I've heard that Robert Parker uses a sangiovese style glass as his default tasting glass.
http://www.wineglassguide.com/sangiovese.html (Which can be seen here)
Barrett Jones
blog@ http://www.dwelltime.net
barrett
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:11 am
Location: Vancouver, BC

Postby Mark Prince on Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:29 pm

barrett wrote:The shape of glassware is HUGE. When selecting a line for the opening of this new restaurant I'm involved with, we tested some other lines side by side riedel, and it was amazing the different floral characteristics we got from the different glassware.

I've heard that Robert Parker uses a sangiovese style glass as his default tasting glass.
http://www.wineglassguide.com/sangiovese.html (Which can be seen here)


Those be my default white wine glasses! Had no idea that Mr. Parker prefers them.

I scored a really nice set of four (so got two boxes) at Sip Wines in Vancouver a few years ago for cost $48 per box).

Mark
Mark Prince
Just in it for the espresso and coffee, Vancouver BC
Mark Prince
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:13 am
Location: vancouver bc
full name: Mark Prince
company: CoffeeGeek.com
: www.CoffeeGeek.com

Postby barrett on Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:20 pm

Mine are all experienced restaurant glassware... good enough for me, not good enough to use on the floor. They have a little chip or defect here or there, but the price was perfect.
Barrett Jones
blog@ http://www.dwelltime.net
barrett
 
Posts: 89
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:11 am
Location: Vancouver, BC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron